Talk:Dragon Ball Z: The World's Strongest
The section regarding the film being non-canon needs to be re-written. While it's pretty obvious whether some movies can be canon or non-canon, others have enough debate that the secion should probably be changed to "Canonicity." After all, seeing Dead Zone or Wrath of the Dragon as "Non-Canon" because of easily-debated issues probably isn't that good in the long run. Ridureyu 00:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)Ridureyu :I rewrote the section to clarify its reasoning and give it a more neutral perspective. That any better? -- 01:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC) It looks good. I honestly think that the only place the movie can fit is when they are training for the androids... provided that Goku forgot how to turn Super Saiyan, or something. Well, at least it's not as tough as Movie 12. Ridureyu 01:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)Ridureyu "But the movie can't take place after the Freeza Saga because Goku isn't able to transform into a Super Saiyan, and still uses the Flying Nimbus as his main means of travel. Therefore, this movie cannot be placed correctly in the anime continuity. " What does "still using the flying nimbus" have anything to do with this not taking place after frieza. I honestly think these are stupid excuses to contradict this movie being considered canon. Also nothing in this movie says he can't turn super saiyan what if he was just surpressing it the whole time or trying not to rely on it. - User:Slayer25769 :Reworded for clarity. You know, of course, that the movie was not made thinking of the series timeline, right? Nobody will create excuses to contradict it being considered canon. The most one can do is to try and make it fit somewhere (even if the movie wasn't creted thinking it would fit somewhere), and point out the inconsistencies. --Sega381 19:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC) I recall Bulma mentioning the "New Millennium", which seems to suggest DBZ takes place in the future. -Turtle Soup 06:27, September 3, 2011 (UTC) Roshi Flying JG, why did you undo my edit, could you also give more summaries so i understand your point? 12:58, September 5, 2011 (UTC) :He jumps, he does not fly, like he does during the 21st tournament. Jeangabin666 21:01, September 5, 2011 (UTC) Continuity Each movie is supposed to be analogous to different parts of the series, and sometimes they can be considered canon. This film, however, does not fit into continuity very well, I think. Everyone is alive, as if the Saiyans had never arrived or never killed anyone, Gohan is in his Piccolo-esque attire and has longish hair, Goku is still using Nimbus and Power Pole, and nobody goes Super Saiyan. To place this movie in the time between the Frieza and Cell Sagas is highly unlikely in my opinion. I think it's simply non-canon and exists in its own continuity along with Tree of Might and Lord Slug.Pizzaguylol 17:43, May 23, 2012 (UTC) :It can fit in the main continuity, read the Continuity section. Alternate timline/universe theory can't be placed into a continuity section. You can use this theory for everything, every minor inconsistencies, and even places sagas and series you don't like into alternate universe (like a few fan do with GT). :The movie doesn't countain inconstistencies which would justify a placement in an alternate universe. Goku using the Nimbus and Power Pole, or not going Super Saiyan doesn't break the continuity. Watch Super Android 13!, Goku doesn't go Super Saiyan until past half of the movie. And in Cooler's Revenges he transforms into the form not until the very end. He uses the form only when really needed. In GT, he fought several time using his base form, even against villains that seemed much stronger than him. 11:00, May 23, 2012 (UTC) Canonicity involving Super Saiyan I edited this article earlier today to explain the possible reasons why Goku doesn't use the Super Saiyan form in this film despite officially being placed in the timeline during training in preparation for the androids, and it was removed by another user, "Sandubadear," who listed his reason as "speculation; goku can't super saiyan at this point in time." First of all, speculation is present on nearly every film's page in the Trivia section, and some even in the Timeline Placement sections, so as long as it's sound speculation, it should not be a problem. Secondly, according to the film's official timeline placement, Goku can very well indeed go Super Saiyan at this point in time. And as the film has been placed in the official timeline (along with all the other films), it can very easily be considered canonical if you take the speculation I provided in my edit into account, as nothing in the film contradicts anything else in the timeline. My edit was fair and just, and I motion that it be made permanent. EBsessed (talk) 06:16, December 17, 2014 (UTC) Tbh, it's kinda ridiculous. Really? Goku can use Super Saiyan but chooses not to out of training? Because it's 'too cold'? despite him using it in movie 7 in the artic, 'the form is still new to him'? despite him saying he could do it at will in the Yardrat Saga?? For *bleeps* sake this movie came out before the Android arc was even invented!! That whole summary of this taking place during the three year training gap makes no sense, as Gohan looks too young, Goku could multiply his kaio-ken far past a 4x by that point. In fact, the beam struggle with a 4x kaio-ken is a homage to the actual canon beam struggle between Goku and Vegeta. We need to check the Daizenshuu, I'll let you know if I find it. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 06:24, December 17, 2014 (UTC) It's not ridiculous at all. Goku has imposed plenty of personal restrictions on himself for training purposes throughout the history of Dragon Ball and DBZ. And since the transformation was still new to him at this point in time, it's entirely possible that his inability to focus his energy due to the cold (as he specifically states in the film) could be what causes him to not be able to go Super Saiyan. Super Android 13 takes place FAR later in the timeline, so comparing this film to that one is ridiculous, as Goku has much more practice with the transformation by that time. He could do it at will in the Trunks saga (no such thing as a Yardrat saga) because there weren't any unusual conditions affecting his energy control, as the cold does in this movie which he, again, specifically says is making it exceptionally difficult for him to focus his energy. Gohan doesn't look too young at all if you ask me, so that's baseless opinion. He looks the same as he does before episode 125, as episode 125 seems to take place near the end of the time skip since he looks taller and more developed, while this movie is meant to take place earlier in the time skip. And just because Goku could go further than a x4 Kaioken at this point doesn't mean he needed to for any reason. Popo taught him not to unnecessarily waste energy and to fight efficiently, so if a x4 was enough, he had no reason to go further. Look above at the last comment in the "Continuity" discussion on this page for further reasoning from another user why this film doesn't contradict the canon, including Goku not going Super Saiyan here. EBsessed (talk) 06:34, December 17, 2014 (UTC) Ok, who keeps editing this page?? Every time I type up a paragraph reply it somehow doesn't send through because someone else edits and I have to retype it, I give up. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 06:42, December 17, 2014 (UTC) :"Canonocity" is not something that is discussed on this article. What we do mention is timeline placement, so viewers have an idea of what event have occurred, and what events haven't yet. As for Super Saiyan, yes it's peculiar that he doesn't use the form, and yes we can speculate theories as to why he wouldn't use it for fun. However, speculation is generally not allowed in articles; instead, we let the users make up their own minds. I tend to think that making excuses for Goku based on our own guesses and theories is not very encyclopedic, and as such adds no value for the readers in this case. 04:28, December 19, 2014 (UTC) I am not "making excuses for Goku based on my own guesses and theories," Goku himself states that he is unable to focus his energy due to the cold. Due to the form being new to him at this time, as well as the fact that the only time he's transformed as far as we are aware aside from his initial transformation on Namek is during the Trunks saga, wherein weather conditions were fair. He has not tried to transform during harsh weather conditions by this point in time, and as such, it is entirely reasonable to take Goku's line about the cold as a just reason for him not to be able to go Super Saiyan. As far as my suggestion about his choice not to use the form goes, although it is not supported by any dialogue as the "cold weather" reason goes, from what we know about Goku and his willingness in the past to impose restrictions on himself for the sake of a challenge, that too is a reasonable assertion to make. Omit that bit of speculation if you like, but the bit about the weather affecting his energy control is perfectly viable and based upon Goku's own exact dialogue. Therefore, it is absolutely reasonable and fair to include the weather reason on the page as a possible explanation for him not going Super Saiyan here. EBsessed (talk) 20:36, December 24, 2014 (UTC) :That's still just you making a guess based on your theories. Any of these could be true, or maybe another reason. There are multiple possibilities and we don't need to assert any particular one on the readers. 08:06, December 25, 2014 (UTC) Are you serious? That makes absolutely zero sense! I pointed out on your talk page the MYRIAD examples of speculation all over the wiki, which you defended as being justified by them being perfectly reasonable possibilities within the Dragon Ball universe, offering possible explanations to help readers/viewers understand how something that seems to break the timeline actually can make perfect sense. Here I have done the EXACT SAME THING those other examples of speculation did, and yet you claim mine unjust. Hell, all of those other things are simply based on guesses and theories all the same as mine here are, and they could all be true or not be true for other reasons, and yet my example here actually uses an exact line of dialogue to back it up, which NONE of those other examples do. I won't sample the large number of examples of this exact same thing here since I already did just that on your talk page, but what I am trying to accomplish here on this wiki page is NO DIFFERENT from any of all of those other examples, and in fact should be even MORE justified since it samples Goku's exact dialogue as proof. So I ask you in sincere bafflement: . It is maddening to sit here watching you justify other examples of this exact same kind of thinking while rejecting my own, especially when mine has more evidence backing it up than most other speculation that you justified all over the wiki. Your reasoning is totally inconsistent and I am calling serious b.s. here. EBsessed (talk) 19:06, December 31, 2014 (UTC) :It looks like I am late to this debate, but I thought I might offer my two cents. While it's preferable that articles have zero speculation, there is some merit in including low level speculation to offer just a possible explanation for inconsistencies. The difference I see in this situation from other types of speculation such as the explanation for Gohan's tail on the Cooler's Revenge page is that this particular speculation seeks to determine the reasoning behing a characters actions/a character's thought process, rather than why a certain event occurred. It's easy to use basic logic to explain an event but trying to figure out what Goku was thinking is a bit more speculative. I do realize that you've found certain articles that attempt to fathom the same type of thing, but that doesn't make those articles any less speculative, and I would advise you to go to the talk pages of those articles too. :On the other hand, you are correct about Goku holding back a lot, and presumably about Goku stating that it's hard to focus his energy (I can't remember it too well, as I haven't seen it in a while) which are two very likely reasons for Goku not to have gone Super Saiyan. I admit that they are both pretty consistent with the presented evidence in the show, and Goku himself said that he couldn't focus his energy, which is kind of a prerequisite for Super Saiyan. It's ultimately up to the community and our policies but I'm not overly against this edit; but the policy that the community decided on does state that we should try to avoid speculation, especially of this type. I'm also basically just taking your word for it on the cold thing; I'll have to rewatch the movie and see. :Sorry for the very "fence-sitter" opinion. 20:12, December 31, 2014 (UTC) Hi again EBsessed, and thanks for moving this discussion to the article talk page. While Neffyarious and I are here to help users like yourself, specific edits proposed on an article should always be discussed on the article's talk page. That way other top notch users, like our comrade Shakuran13, can add wisdom too. As a second note, I urge you to take a look at our Rules page to read about local site rules. For instance, the profanity that I have removed from your last post is against the rules. Finally, please try and exercise patience when discussing changes. It's okay is another user disagrees with you; we all have the same goal of making the site as great as possible, and it's just that points of view vary from editor to editor. Comments like "Are you serious? That makes absolutely zero sense!" don't do much other than berate me and using all caps and exclamation points online generally denotes yelling. Let's have a civil conversation about how best to post info, not yell at people in outrage. For the record, I already told you that I am in fact in favor of adding your edit to the article, in the trivia section. We already have a bulletpoint, "Goku did not turn Super Saiyan when it was needed, showing strain at the use of a Kaio-ken x4 and still wearing King Kai's symbol." Your point about the cold weather would fit very well there. It does not belong in the timeline section because not only does cold weather not help place the event in the timeline, but the fact Goku didn't use Super Saiyan actually confused the issue. As for your note that Sandubadear removed it from trivia, I can't speak for him. 06:12, January 1, 2015 (UTC) Thank you Shakuran, you seem to agree with all the major points I've been making in this debate. I'm glad I'm not alone here. But yes, I added that edit immediately after watching the FUNimation re-dub of the film on Blu-ray, so I am 100% certain about Goku saying he can't focus his energy. 10X: granted that I haven't read the Rules page, but I'm incredibly surprised something as innocent and vanilla as the common "wt_" phrase would be considered "profanity" and not be allowed here. I've never seen a website with such strict language rules before, and disallowing "wt_" seems really quite ridiculous. As for your claim that you've already told me that you're in favor of adding my edit to this article, please point me in the direction of where you said that, because I don't remember seeing any such thing in anything you've typed in response to me, either on this page or on your talk page. I was getting increasingly frustrated because you continued to argue that my edit shouldn't be made while defending other similar, if not weaker, speculation on many other pages. Had I seen you at any point tell me that you're in favor of my edit to this page, I wouldn't have gotten so upset and this discussion would've been over long ago. Perhaps this was a simple miscommunication. But even looking back at our discussions on both pages, I don't see you mentioning being in favor of this edit anywhere. The edit you said you agreed with in the discussion on your talk page was the one I made on the Tree of Might page mentioning the fact that, despite being considered to talk place during the wait for the androids, Gohan meets and names Icarus in that film whereas he already knew Icarus in the Garlic Jr. saga. And as for Sandubadear's removal of my edit, that is why I was "edit warring" with him, because it was clear that my edit was just and he was in the wrong. If someone makes a justified edit to a page and some other user removes it, it seems to me that the remover would be at fault, not the person trying to keep the edit in place. And it seems pretty absurd to make an entire discussion out of a justified edit on a talk page simply because one individual thinks it's unjust. Maybe people just need to be less restrictive on new edits and keep an open mind to new, relevant information. Anyway, thank you for finally making it clear that you have no problem with my edit to this page about Goku not going Super Saiyan in the film. As you can see, I had a lot of strong conviction about the edit's credibility and I absolutely knew it was a fair edit, so it was incredibly frustrating that it was turning into such a huge problem to get it allowed. I apologize for my increasing lack of patience on the matter as time went on, but I hope you can understand where I was coming from and why I would start to reach the end of my fuse when a clearly justified edit was being met with a frankly bewildering amount of staunch, unswaying resistence. I'm glad this can finally be put to rest, so once again, thank you. I appreciate you understanding my edit and increasing frustration. EBsessed (talk) 05:51, January 2, 2015 (UTC) :You said in the trivia that Goku and co. in movie 7 are post-Room of Spirit and Time chamber training which is wrong, look at Gohan. Not sure how you wanna reword that but I'll let you do that. SSJ3Vegeto (talk) 06:45, January 2, 2015 (UTC) I checked my contributions page and found that it was on the Dragon Ball Z: The Tree of Might page that I originally said, "Put plot inconsistencies in trivia, not timeline placement. Daizenshuu tells us the timeline placement," after undoing your edit on 12/19/2014. Then when you asked me about this issue and that on my talk page, I said, "I cannot speak for this unnamed editor that you had a conflict with, and his opinions do not reflect my own. I agree with your adding it to trivia," on 12/21/2014. If I had known that you missed my comments to you two weeks ago, I would have made it more clear. Or if it wasn't clear that I was speaking generically: I was speaking generically. As for being surprised at our rules, that's on you for not reading them, since the first post on your talk page after you make an edit here asks you to read the rules. Every site has different rules, and we have a talk page attached to our rules pages where users can discuss changing them. Many websites don't allow profanity, and some wikis will even ban you just for disagreeing with admins. Our site lets the community decide on rules by consensus, and the current mindset is that your language was not appropriate for the younger fans on the site. We also feel that other, less potentially offensive language can adequately convey the same point. : On your talk page, both paragraphs beginning with "You removed my edit" and "In fact, if you look earlier in the page's edit history" were originally structured as one singular paragraph, though when you responded to it, you split it into two, which I can see might make it look like the second paragraph was talking about The World's Strongest, but since it was originally one paragraph, it was all about the Tree of Might. So it seems when you replied to that second part of the split-up paragraph, you thought I was talking about the World's Strongest page but in fact was still talking about the Tree of Might page. At that point in time I had not yet disputed your removal of my edit to the World's Strongest page. I hadn't mentioned the World's Strongest page or its edits until near the end of the third split-up paragraph where I said, "This all makes even less sense because you told me on the World's Strongest talk page that speculation is not allowed on this wiki because, in your words, it's 'not very encyclopedic.'" Thus, it's clear we had a simple misunderstanding. EBsessed (talk) 21:27, January 3, 2015 (UTC) ::Okay, that makes sense. 01:30, January 4, 2015 (UTC) As for edit wars, this is an issue on every wiki, and Wikipedia. Edit wars are complicated beasts, and different sites handle them different ways. The first key distinction to be aware of is vandalism vs. good faith. Vandalism is someone making trouble just to ruin a page, such as adding replacing every instance of the word "Goku" with the word "sponge". You can revert that as many times as needed and it is not edit warring. Good faith means an edit that is intended to improve the wiki, whether it is widely accepted or only a minority believe it is best. Your edit fell into this category, and was disputed by another editor. When two good editors disagree, the talk page is needed to resolve the issue. Simply to stop the edit war while discussion takes place, the convention here is to leave the page as it was before the disputed edit (this info is on the Rules page as well). Obviously you believe the edit made sense, but two separate users disagreed, and this discussion shows it was worth talking about. Lastly, before adding the edit to the page, make sure a consensus is reached. That means everyone should agree, which it looks like SSJ3Vegeto does not. Looking at what you added, I don't think the wording is quite done yet. Here's what I propose: Goku mentions during the film that the cold makes him unable to focus his energy, which would be a logical explanation as to why he has trouble with the Kaioken and is presumably unable to go Super Saiyan. His ease of going Super Saiyan during the Trunks saga despite having trouble with it here can be attributed to the fair weather in which the Trunks saga took place. Though Goku does go Super Saiyan in freezing cold weather in the film ''Super Android 13, that film takes place much later in the timeline. By that point in time Goku would have had considerably more practice with the transformation.'' This version is worded more briefly and omits the remark about the time chamber. What do you think? 03:24, January 3, 2015 (UTC) :That sounds fair to me. EBsessed (talk) 21:27, January 3, 2015 (UTC) ::SSJ3Vegeto, you good with this? 01:30, January 4, 2015 (UTC) : ::Yes, that's good is what I changed my username to SSJ2 Gogeta (talk) 01:35, January 4, 2015 (UTC) :Why was this paragraph removed? It was agreed upon, and now it's been taken away without any further discussion on the subject here on the Talk page. It should be reinstated until it's been discussed and agreed upon that it should be removed. EBsessed (talk) 09:35, September 19, 2016 (UTC) ::Once it was found that Daizenshuu 6 placed the movie between the battle with the Saiyans and the conflict on Namek, the entire point about Goku not using higher Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan became unneeded.--Neffyarious (talk) 10:01, September 19, 2016 (UTC)